WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP. INTERVIEW WITH GERALDINE MATTHEWS & BRITTA HANLEY. HOST: PROF. DR. KASIA JAGODZINSKA

Prof. Dr. Kasia Jagodzinska: Hello and welcome to this podcast. I am Professor Kasia Jagodzinska. I'm delighted to be the host of this podcast in the stunning setting on the shores of Lake Zurich with two amazing representatives of C-level leadership. The first is Britta Hanley, the former CRO of The Kusnacht Practice and member of the advisory board, and Geraldine Matthews, who is the COO of The Kusnacht Practice. We are here to discuss and explore some of the topics around leadership, specifically with the focus on an exchange on our experiences, the challenges that we face, the advantages and disadvantages and the opportunities and many more exciting topics. Ladies, it's a pleasure to have you here. I'd like to start the discussion with exploring and exchanging what are some of the main challenges that you faced in your leadership roles and how have you overcome them?

Geraldine Matthews: I think that the differences sometimes between people and their characters is often challenging. And you can often find some of those things are what make it complex to move into leadership roles, and particularly with women, who are seen as emotional creatures and caregivers from, from the start, right? In the history this is how we see women. I actually personally believe those are great strengths for the leadership positions and that we have to learn to be able to showcase them in a way that people, yeah, will really want to work with women more and that organisations can understand that having women at the helms of company are, you know, how you can really get culture change, how you can really develop a culture which is empathetic and caring. And those are not, for me, words of weakness. And these are some of the confusions I think that we see still today.

KJ: That's fantastic. I love that you highlight the fact that leadership is all about people and the personal connection, which is one of the amazing and most important strengths that you can bring, the empathy, the understanding, the bond between individuals. Britta, Is that also your experience?

Britta Hanley: I think it even starts a little bit earlier when we have, yeah, especially a woman applying for leadership roles, right? So there are some studies and research on that. If you, as a woman, you apply for a role, you want to tick all the boxes. Men just think, okay, I can negotiate this part. And that is already when it starts. And there are also many women I have met, they didn't want to be in this kind of leadership role because it's a different animal, I have to say. And also it's a different responsibility. And that's not made for everybody.

KJ: I agree, I agree completely. Could you share with us maybe some of your personal success stories? I deliberately want to start the discussion with success in order to also do away with any bias or any stereotypes or self-fulfilling prophecies. Basically, when I work in my dual role as a professor and also an international negotiation expert and business advisor, a lot of young leaders or aspiring leaders or leaders that are climbing up the corporate steps, they say that they're facing a lot of personal challenges. They have a lot of, how to say it, complexes. And that keeps them stuck in their minds. And these are people who have great potential objectively but subjectively they feel they’re negotiating down. And I mean leaders of both genders, female and male here. So, maybe let's kick off with success stories, Geraldine, to empower.

GM: A lot of conversation and content in your question, but yes, success stories. I mean, I've been a leader since 2001. That was my first management position that I ever received. I was in a mentorship situation and my mentor pushed me over the edge. You know, like you push a child off a diving board. Sometimes you need to give them that little push. And that's what I got. And I think sometimes others believe in us more than we believe in ourselves. And you see this, especially younger women starting in a workforce, that confidence, that capacity to believe in yourself and to say, yeah, I can do this. I like what you said, Britta. Like, you look at a job description or a job ad, and you're like, I can do this, okay this I need to go do a class before I can apply for the job. Whereas with men it would be different. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. 80%, I can do the rest. I'll figure it out. It's just different attitudes and mentalities, I think. And my success was really, I have to say, driven by this mentorship role.I have tried throughout my career. I've been in health care my whole life. So really a very high percentage of women, and had the chance to mentor many young people and also not so young people. Sometimes it depends where you are in your life. You know, if you've, you've had your children and you’re 35, and that's when you're ready to take next steps. And sometimes you want to do it early and have your kids in between, which is what I did. I think, for me, one other big help was the support. I was born and raised in Canada, and this is a very progressive country when it comes to supporting women to work full time. I was, you know, off for some time with my young kids, but I worked full time my entire career throughout and that was a big support.

KJ: Great. Thank you very much. So the importance of mentorship and the importance of networks, the social contacts that actually helps accelerate women's careers. Does this reflect your thoughts on the topic, your personal experiences Britta?

BH: No, absolutely. So mentorship is a key asset to have if you really want to go up to C-level, not only as a woman, as every kind of person needs to do that. Right? And, what I did is, working many years in technology, that's a very male dominated sector, right? So we can also support each other and really identify the talents you have, especially the female talents. So I created kind of a young female, young females in technology was the name actually of the group I created in a global organisation. So we have been 30 women and we had, I think, quarterly offsite meetings and we shared ideas. And I was kind of the, how should I say that, yeah, the way in bringing great ideas up to the C-level because young women working together with old men is sometimes not easy if it comes to communication. So whenever you can be kind of a mentor or some kind of channel or supporting function in an organisation, that was very helpful and, yeah, was very motivating as well.

KJ: So you both have a wide, wide and broad experience. Then how would you assess the leadership style of men and women? Are there any significant differences that you've identified, any areas of focus that you'd suggest our listeners and viewers to pay more attention to in their leadership roles?

BH: I think there's a lot of bias that needs to be addressed, but generally speaking, there is no difference If I'm a man or a woman, we need to do the same to get to C-level. We need to get mentors. We need to be highly educated. There's continuous learning, what's going on in the market, what's going on in the business. But, generally speaking, there's not a difference. If you look on the paper, yes, there is a difference. There's a difference in salaries. There is a difference in the underlining bias in the background that can stop some kind of promotions. But there's also something like misunderstanding, right? Because sometimes I'm thinking, you are thinking in a certain way, you have assumptions and it's just not true. So there's a lot of communication required as well to go into the same direction. But yeah. And sometimes in some companies it's more and others it's less. Right?

GM: No, absolutely Britta. I love what you're saying. For sure there's, we all have to work as hard to get where we want to go, that's for sure. I would say that with women, tend, we tend to be more empathetic, collaborative and participative style of management, right? We want to get everybody on board. Then if we're all together, then we're like a force and we can get things done. Men tend to use more authoritative type styles of management. A little bit less empathy, often. My feeling is that we, since Covid especially, we are going into an era more and more of where this kind of, like, we work together participative style, we sell ideas, we get feedback, we work together, and then we go and we make a change. And I think that that's, yeah, people working from home and everything that we saw through this, through this time really made people sort of value their opinions and themselves and we're working a lot online now, which is such a different, in tech, I'm sure you've been working online for decades, but in healthcare, we've been working online for three years, since Covid. And so some of that work and some of those challenges, I think, really brought, I think, actually we've discussed, Kasia, before about the coming of AI and the growth and the space it's going to take in the business and how we are going to have to balance that.

KJ: And leverage us as well. Going back, I'd like to go and address both points because they're fascinating. But the first one is the communication, the importance of communication. And, what I have noticed in the field, working with clients, also based on my personal experiences as a leader, is that women too often tend to ask for permission or approval. This is one thing, so the statistics confirm that women still have this pay gap, this salary gap, earnings gap and so on in relation to men. But very often the experience is that they don't ask. They simply don't ask. When I have female clients, female negotiators, high level, C-level and so on, they are afraid or they ask in the form of permission or allowing me to, may I go? And men don't ask for this. So I think this is also interesting to think about this permission or approval. This sentiment that you have to, everyone needs to be comfortable with your, what you're asking for, which is not the case. And this is where I would like to make the link to the Covid and the distance and working and collaborating through a screen which empowered and reinforced a lot of female leaders because the screen is a natural barrier through which you do not pick up so much on the body language of the other person, on their emotional state, so the empathy level goes down. So I think that this time was beneficial for the development of more, a little bit more task orientation, for many female leaders.

BH: Absolutely. Yeah. But in a hybrid or like, remote work setting, you need to manage and lead in a totally different way. Yeah. It's about setting clear targets. We had also implemented coffee, virtual coffee breaks. But it requires actually a lot more communication than just being in the office and work together. But I agree. Yes, you need to have this kind of also adaptive leadership style. And then you go with it. And that's different because every team is different. Every person is different. And that's why they all need also a different leadership style. Right? And then you need to find your way how you lead and how you manage people. Are they mainly working from home, part time workers. Yeah. So it's complex. It's not so easy sometimes.

GM: No, I mean, I see that very much so with, with, you know, when you come to the table and you want to negotiate stuff. I mean, these are learned skills, right? And, yeah, women and men are educated differently from a young age. And, and this, this spills into the life. But these are things that can be learned. And I think it's a lot about believing in yourself, knowing what your core values are, what your core beliefs are, what you believe you are capable of. I think these are all things that need to be continuously worked on. I mean, throughout this, this career that I've had in management, I've continuously been building, you know, on those things, reading books, listening to podcasts, inspiring yourself, meeting women like you guys. It's so nice, you know, to be able to exchange and to feel that power and to feel like, yeah, I got this. And, you know, I can do whatever I set my mind to do.

KJ: Britta, what advice would you give developing young, aspiring, but not just, I don't want to just talk about the young ones, but aspiring people who are developing in their leadership roles?

BH: First of all, I think you really need to know what you want to do. You need to have clear objectives and targets for your career planning so that you have at least a good direction where you want to be. And then you should really look in what do you love to do. So where is your passion? Where, where are your talents? And then you need to connect with the right people who have the same values, who go in the same direction, and where you can learn and grow. I think it's very important to have this kind of mentor, mentorship. What you discussed, Geraldine, but also to find your purpose, your why. For me, it was always health care and has always been, my whole life I'm working in health care. Started in a hospital, ended up in technology and now for The Kusnacht Practice. Right. And I just love it. I love to help people. I also love to improve the system, the structures, how we work. To make it at the end more successful for the clients who receive care, and also more secure.

KJ: Brilliant. If you love what you do, you don't really work one day in your life, right?

GM: So they say. So they say.

KJ: Yes. So they say.

GM: I think I would also just advise people, like, it's not a linear way up. Right? You need to accept there will be challenges. There will sometimes be that you don't get the job that you wanted or that you believed. Believe in life, believe in the way things happen are meant to happen as well. Work hard. Be focused on your goals. And, yeah, I think things come. And, yeah, network. Talk to people. Keep your mind sharp. Read books. You know, all these things keep you also very stimulated and it doesn't have to be about the topic of your work.

KJ: Yes. And also be kind to yourself because very often we are, we tend to be so self-critical. I see leaders driving themselves to the ground with regrets, with guilt, with things that they should have done, could have done, and so on, which will then externally impedes their performance. Really, they're hurting themselves. So be kind to yourself. This may sound a bit spiritual, but believe that life has a plan. And sometimes when things do not happen it's because something better is around the corner. I think this is also characteristic of a professional person, the ability to let go. I remember when I was much younger I was very task oriented, very strict, very planning oriented. And now I think that maturity and experience has taught me to just sometimes let go and enjoy, while being professional. Can you share any examples of women who have inspired you professional, in professional and personal settings, who have been role models and have inspired you? I know you mentioned mentors, but could you share some stories of the women who you find particularly inspiring?

GM: I like to read about all women who are doing innovative, exciting things and roles. I have to say that Sheryl Sandberg, for me, the COO of Facebook was always, it kind of coincided, her book came out when I started my Masters in Management and it was one of the books that was recommended to me and yeah, very inspiring, very inspiring.

KJ: And Britta, what about you?

BH: It's actually a man. I think I am quite inspired the last couple of years of Elon Musk and what he does. I think, the way he just builds companies is very interesting to watch.

KJ: Great. Thank you. For me, it's a bit more trivial. It was actually my mother, who is still my biggest role model, and her ability to balance life, bringing me up and being an example for me. I remember very often when she would come back home from court still in her suit with groceries, cooking dinner for me, driving me somewhere to one of my classes. Very, very inspiring lady for me. What strategies can women use to successfully navigate the business environment? So I deliberately cut it to be a bit less emotional. So now let's go to strategies for women. What do you recommend?

BH: That strategies is also what we have discussed for the entire talk now, it's like, really find your purpose, find what you really like, educate yourself to a very high standard. Find a good mentor. Connect and network with people who have the same interests, who have the same experience, or are in the field where you have found your purpose or you have your interest, right? And then, take it from there, you will, there are so many, especially here in Zurich, you have so many events where you can network, where you can collaborate with like-minded people. Right? That's what I do and that is what I would recommend.

KJ: Great. Thank you Britta. And Geraldine, what about you?

GM: Like Britta said, we can, you know, also create groups at work. I think there's nothing like the power of sharing, of talking together, of building something together. And if you're trying to shape strategy and you're trying to move towards, understand what's happening in the company, understand, you know, where you're trying to go. And, of course, the why. We know if people understand the why, the purpose of what they're doing, their job, the success of the company then comes.

BH: Another important topic is that if you are going into a C-level role there are many steps before that where you have to build teams. And what made me successful is that I always brought or I tried to bring in competencies and skills and personalities. Never the same, always try to build a team that complements each other. And once your team is successful, you are successful. And then this was very much my approach and also my learnings, right? Don't look at age, don't look at gender, just look at the talent that you need in this moment.

KJ: This is very refreshing.

BH: What needs the team to execute on the strategy, to execute on the business.

KJ: This is very refreshing. I'm very happy you said that because years back when still less women used to be in C positions, in leadership positions, then there used to be this myth, probably related to the numbers themselves, that women do not help other women because it took a lot of effort, it took a lot of competition to get to the top and hence they are very protective. So I am very happy that this was said, that this myth is being done away with. That success is a collaborative effect, both for female and male leaders and especially, Geraldine, what we mentioned earlier with the dawn or the taking over, it's not even the dawn now, but it's the taking over of AI. The importance of these, stereotypically I would say, feminine traits such as empathy, bonding, being together and so on is going to increase. We're going to, the more technology takes over, the more this human factor and element will be important, in my opinion.

GM: Another myth that I just like to say is that leadership is not about a title, and sometimes people strive very hard to get that title. I want to be ahead of, I want to be a director, then I want to be a chief. And the thing is, that leadership needs to be exercised and you need to to show that. And that is leadership in itself. Whatever position that you're holding, you should be continuously just showing leadership to your peers, being there for them, asking questions. How are you doing today? How's everything? I see you're quite busy. Is there anything I can help you with? Those kind of things are what will bring you in your, on your ladder in your career.

BH: My final remark on leadership is that I had a very motivational leader and also mentor. And he told me, look Britta, if you want to be a good leader you need to make yourself redundant. And I think that says it all.

KJ: That is very smart advice. And, Geraldine, what about you?

GM: The thing is it's counter intuitive, right? Once you understand that, it's great. But I think most people and what we have seen in history in leadership is people do everything to hang on to their jobs and kind of shy away. But I think that that's a really good, inspirational thing you were told. For myself, it's really, I still stick with the mentorship as being, everyone should have one, whether it's inside or outside. We didn't talk too much about sponsorship as well, but you need people who are vouching for you and who stand behind you.

KJ: And I would add from myself that belief, first and foremost, believe that you are a leader, internally. If you have that belief and that confidence internally, it will manifest itself also externally and people will want to follow you because leadership is, after all, also an exercise in people wanting out of their free will to follow you. Thank you so much for these amazing insights on leadership. It was a great pleasure to learn from you and exchange experiences. Thank you.